Business Leader and Author Pat Burke Interviews with Matthew Kelly

Matthew Kelly:

Hi, I'm Matthew Kelly, and welcome to Profoundly Human. My guest today is Patrick Burke. Pat, great to be with you.

Pat Burke:

Great to be here today, man.

Matthew Kelly:

Important and very serious questions to start, are you a coffee drinker?

Pat Burke:

I am a coffee drinker.

Matthew Kelly:

And what are your coffee rituals and routines?

Pat Burke:

Interestingly, I just started making coffee at home every morning, because my wife Mary Jo, in the last year or so, started to drink it. So, it used to be I just drank it at work, but now that she is a drinker, we have a cup at home together. So, it's a new revelation after 40 years of marriage.

Matthew Kelly:

Now, is there a time in the day where you need to stop drinking coffee?

Pat Burke:

Yeah. I don't have it after, after 10 o'clock.

Matthew Kelly:

And what led Mary Jo to become a coffee drinker?

Pat Burke:

Interestingly enough, she was on a dynamic Catholic pilgrimage to Italy with a good friend of hers who was a coffee drinker, and of course, they have great coffee in Italy, and one thing led to another, and she said, "Maybe I'll try some of this US coffee," so-

Matthew Kelly:

All right.

Pat Burke:

... Now she's a drinker.

Matthew Kelly:

Very good. What about favorite food?

Pat Burke:

"Favorite food," I would have to say would be a steak from the precinct here in Cincinnati-

Matthew Kelly:

All right. I know you're

Pat Burke:

... Nothing better.

Matthew Kelly:

... I know you're a music lover. Can you get it down to a favorite musician, or a favorite group?

Pat Burke:

I would say favorite group would be The Red Hot Chili Peppers, which might be surprising for someone my age, although those guys are getting to be as old as me. Favorite musician, Eric Clapton, probably.

Matthew Kelly:

All right, very good. What about favorite movie?

Pat Burke:

"Favorite movie," Raiders of the Lost Arc.

Matthew Kelly:

And why?

Pat Burke:

I don't know. I think it was funny. Mary Jo took me to see that when I was studying for the CPA exam, and she said, "I think we should go to this movie," and she picked me up from the place that I was studying, and I had no expectation, and from that opening scene, I was just captivated. So, I think that was probably the surprise of it, and just one of those movies that you can turn on and watch 10, 20 minutes of it anytime, and think, "What a great movie, just a great story."

Matthew Kelly:

Fantastic. You grew up here in the Midwest, in the greater Cincinnati Area. What was it like growing up here? What was a day in the life of-

Pat Burke:

Well, "day in the life," well, it was... I mean, I lived in a neighborhood. We lived at the end of a cul-de-sac. There were a lot of kids there. We played sports in the, in the cul-de-sac, whiffle ball, kickball. My dad built a basketball court at the bottom of our hill, and I found out much later that our whole neighborhood was a golf course. So, there were all these houses were kind of on the rim, and the backyards went into a valley, and at the bottom of the valley, he built this. It was on our property, but it was more like a public playground. So, there were basketball games there. If it was warm enough to play, there was a game there every day. There was never a day when you could... If you wanted to play, you could play.

Matthew Kelly:

And did you boys get into trouble?

Pat Burke:

Well, no, but there was a lot of fighting. That was the era. I'm 66 years old. So, in that era, if you hit a dispute, you resolved the dispute with your fists, and there were a lot of older guys in the neighborhood. It was mostly they'd just sort of make you eat dirt and then kick you in the pants and send you home. It wasn't too brutal, but you did learn to defend yourself, or else to run quickly.

Matthew Kelly:

And did you have a favorite sport growing up?

Pat Burke:

It was basketball. I mean, I played that the most and that was the... Like I said, there was always a game going on. So, if you wanted to play, you could play, and actually, many of the... It was all guys in those days... Many of them went on and play, nobody professionally, but many college players from that group. So, they were good, competitive games.

Matthew Kelly:

Wow, and you have remained a sports fan your whole life. What's your favorite sport to watch, either live or on TV?

Pat Burke:

Pro football is my favorite sport to watch on TV. Live, I would say it's baseball. I like the pace of baseball. I like that you can talk to whomever you go to the game with, and it's unfortunately not a lot of cheering these days, or if you're cheering, it's not doing too much good for the Reds.

Matthew Kelly:

What do you love about football?

Pat Burke:

I don't know. As a kid that was... Even though I played for a few years, it was just the NFL was captivating to me. My best friend lived right next door, and he wasn't a basketball player. So, if I wanted to hang out with him, we tossed football and played football. So, and he was way, way into it. So, he got me into it, and that was one of the ways we stayed friends.

Matthew Kelly:

Fantastic. How would you describe yourself to someone who had never met you?

Pat Burke:

I would say "competitive, passionate, soft on the inside, a more harder shell than the inside."

Matthew Kelly:

And then how does that manifest?

Pat Burke:

I think I'm probably... People would be surprised to know that I was an introvert. They'd be surprised to know that I was sensitive, and I think that we were just talking about this the other day. At work, we had sales training, and it was just amazing to me how many people were so afraid to talk to a client, potential client, or make a call, and I thought that never bothered me, and because I think it was one of those things. If I wanted to eat, I had to sell so that it was because it's like a wild animal. If you can't hunt, you can't eat. So, I became a hunter, because I think I had to be, but I think people would be surprised that really isn't my personality. It's just something I learned to do because I had to, but everybody else, "Well, you're so natural at it." It's like, "I'm not really natural. I just did a lot."

Matthew Kelly:

Who is the most interesting person you've ever met?

Pat Burke:

Well, I would have to say my mentor growing up was my older brother, and my dad died when I was 14. I had just turned 14, and my older brother was 13 years older than me, and he didn't really have to pay any attention to me, but he did, and sort of became a surrogate father. And if today's parents are parachute parents, or helicopter parents, he was more of a parachute parent. He was boots on the ground and giving me a good swift kick when I needed it, sending me, "Hey, if you want to go to law school, your GPA better be," and then that would... That's the whole note. So, and he died 20 years ago, and it's funny. He and I spoke every day, and every once in a while, an issue will come up and I'll reach on my credenza for a phone as though I could talk to him again. It's like, "How is that possible after 20 years?"

Matthew Kelly:

Losing your dad at 14, how were you aware of that impacting you at the time and then, as you look back, how are you aware of it impacting you?

Pat Burke:

At the time, it was shocking. I mean, he and I went to a Bengals football game over at Nippert Stadium. I remember watching the Bengals get beat up by the... It was 1969. I think that team... The Chiefs won the Super Bowl, I think, that year, so a great team, and the Bengals were semi-competitive. I remember him saying, "I don't really feel that good," on the way home, but that wasn't unusual, for him to not feel good, but as it turned out, he had a heart attack, and he died the next day. So, I think that he was only 60 years old. My mom was 58. I mean, it was just... There was so much commotion. My mother had never driven a car, written a check. She was the typical, I guess, 50s housewife.

Pat Burke:

So, there was so much sort of disorganization around that, and one of my sisters moved home to live with us for a while, who had just gotten married. It was kind of a crazy time. Looking back, I don't think there was any time to really deal with it. And like I said, my brother sort of stepped in, and he was married by that time and had one child. So, it was... My life kind of went on as it had, and he realized there was a loss. I think it affected my mother so much more than the rest of us that we were worried about her more than ourselves.

Matthew Kelly:

What's most important to you now, in your life, and how does that differ to 20 years ago?

Pat Burke:

It's interesting. I think the older you get, the more outward focus you become, and kids and grandkids and the things you hope that you are able to impart, and I've led a very lucky existence. I've worked hard, but I think I've been very lucky in the people I've chosen, and biggest decision you ever make, of course, is who is going to be your spouse, and I lucked out greatly there, and we've had great kids and grandkids and in-laws. So, I think that's been a tremendous blessing, and I think I think about that, and where all that's going, more than I think about, "Gee, what's my next business conquest," which, 20 years ago, that's what I was thinking about all the time, and I don't think I stopped, but slowed down a bit maybe.

Matthew Kelly:

And 20 years ago, when you were thinking about, "What is the next business conquest," how were you approaching that? What were you looking for?

Pat Burke:

That's a good question. I think the answer to that would be I wasn't very discerning about how I did that. I think the best way to describe that is I thought anything was possible, because I thought that everybody would put in as much effort as I did in the business pursuits that I had taken on, and that if I partnered with somebody, they would just act exactly like that, and if they knew something about it, and had a drive and a passion they'd be successful, and what I found out is that's just not true, and since I [inaudible 00:11:35] certain ventures that I really had no business in, because I really didn't understand them, those didn't work out, and it wasn't... I couldn't make up for the other person's sort of lack of drive and competitiveness, which was... That taught me a good lesson, an expensive lesson, but a good lesson.

Matthew Kelly:

Can you teach drive?

Pat Burke:

I think people can be put into a situation where drive becomes fun, and competing and having metrics to hit become important to them. I think there's a certain... I had it described to me by sort of a curmudgeonly client of mine that owns a printing company. He said, "People's want gland is only of a certain size, and they're only going to compete to the level that their want gland will allow them to. So, everybody sort of has a point at which they're satisfied, and they won't make the next call," which, to me, I thought, "That's just... Of course, they'll make the next call," but I've learned it's true. While I may make the next call, they won't

Matthew Kelly:

Interesting, you grew up here. You grew up Catholic. I know it's an important part of your life, has remained an important part of your life. Was there a time in your life where you realized, "The faith is mine now. It's not just something that my parents raised me in, but it's mine"?

Pat Burke:

Yeah, I think... So, I went to University of Dayton. It's a Catholic college, and that was the first time I'd really been away from home, and my parents were very devout, and I would say strict Catholic. So, I mean, there was no such thing as "sleeping in on Sunday." I mean, that just didn't happen. If you were living at home, you were at mass on Sunday, absolutely. And we didn't even think about not doing that. That wasn't even considered, and my parents went to mass every day and so that was just part of our life, and it was important, and even in the summers, it was when you didn't have to go to mass, and when I went to school in St. Catherine's in Fort Thomas, Kentucky, they had mass every morning, and every student went every day, and my parents went too. In the summer, we'd get away from that, but one or two days a week, it'd be like, "You're going to walk up to church and go to mass."

Pat Burke:

So, that was enforced devoutness, perhaps. I don't know, but I think, later on, and going to a Catholic college... And most of the guys I went to school, went to college with, were Catholic, and were fairly religious, I would say. They had good priests and they made it... You were engaged with your faith there, and it wasn't looked down upon. It was looked up at. So, I think that made it much more real to me.

Matthew Kelly:

I remember hearing you speak about hitchhiking home from-

Pat Burke:

Hard to believe in this day and age, right?

Matthew Kelly:

It certainly is, hitch hiking home from college. When you mention "this day and age," I can't imagine hitchhiking anywhere, or one of my kids to do that. When you look back on that, what is your memory of hitchhiking down from Dayton to Cincinnati?

Pat Burke:

Well, this may sound unbelievable, but I never once got a ride all the way. So, it was like even though they're only 50 miles apart, and I used to hold a little sign that said, "Student, Cincinnati," [inaudible 00:15:28]. I mean, I guess I looked scruffy enough. I didn't want them to think I was destitute, although I was. If you're hitchhiking, you probably are pretty close to being destitute, but I had some rides with some pretty sketchy characters, but never had a negative experience. I think, as far as I ever got on the ride from the exit at UD was maybe to [inaudible 00:15:54], which was five miles from downtown, but never all the way downtown. So, that was hard to believe, but I mean, I did it so many, many, many times

Matthew Kelly:

When you got downtown, then you would take a bus?

Pat Burke:

Yeah.

Matthew Kelly:

You became an entrepreneur at the age of 28, started your own CPA firm, and what is it that led you to go out on your own, so to speak, and what have been the pros and cons, highs and lows, of being an entrepreneur?

Pat Burke:

I think, going out on my own, it was probably mostly irrational exuberance. I think it was interesting. The firm I worked for, I'd worked for them my last year of law school, and I worked for them for four years, and they treated you very much like you had your own firm. It was like, "These are your clients. You're in charge of them. You're going to send them a bill." And so, I mean, the very first month I was there, they just sent me... They gave me a big computer thing and, "Here's your clients to bill," and it was like some of them, I didn't even know who they were. And so, after four years of that, I thought, "Well, I know how to do that part of it," and there were good people there that I worked with, smart people, and I learned a lot.

Pat Burke:

And what happened towards the end of my experience there is I was the only... There was one other lawyer on staff there, and he and I would sort of do the research and then he left to go to school, to New York to get his LLM. And so I was now the staff lawyer, and I was doing all the research and writing, and it was like, "This isn't... I'm better with people," and I was actually bringing in clients fairly regularly. I thought, "Well, they're not going to ever look at me that way, because I'm going to be the guy in the back writing the memos," and I thought, "This isn't going to work. I need to get out of here." And as I've told this story a million times, but it's the truth, my older brother, who I mentioned, was my mentor. I said, "Hey, I need to talk to you."

Pat Burke:

So, our typical place to have lunch was Skyline Chili. And so I bought him a couple of cheese [inaudible 00:18:01], and I said, "Hey, this is it. I'm going to leave this firm, and I want to go to work with you," and he was a partner in a law firm downtown, and he just started shaking his head. And he said... I said, "What do you mean?" He goes, "Well, two things. Number one, if you come to work here, you can't just work for me. You have to work for whomever on whatever matter you want. I mean, maybe it would be business or tax, but it can't be just me. And the next thing, you're not going to want to hear, but you're really..." I won't use his word... But "a shotty employee, and you need to be on your own."

Pat Burke:

So, then he said, "Hey, if it doesn't work out, you can always get a job in either law or accounting, but you're young. You don't have a..." Of course, by that time, we had a child. "So, you only have one child, and you have a low mortgage, and Mary Jo is working. So, why don't you give it a shot?" So, I did, with about... Unfortunately, that's about the level of thought I gave it, and I thought, "He's right. I can do this," and never looked back.

Matthew Kelly:

After a year, what did you think about that decision?

Pat Burke:

By far, the best decision I ever made.

Matthew Kelly:

Already, after one year?

Pat Burke:

Well, I was making twice as much money and having five times as much fun, and it was funny because Mary Jo, after probably two or three months into this, she said, "I've got a new husband." I said, "Really? Was I that miserable before?" She said, "Yeah, you were pretty hard to deal with." So-

Matthew Kelly:

Wow, interesting. So, today, you're a strategic advisor to businesses. Obviously, you're a CBA. You're an attorney, and you've got clients in almost every industry. What do you see business owners struggling with?

Pat Burke:

People?

Matthew Kelly:

"People."

Pat Burke:

I mean, it's universal. I just think there's a confluence of a great economy sucked up a lot of people and then the COVID and the work from home situation, and now people... I mean, just in the last two weeks, I've had three interviews cancel the day of the interview, and these are high level jobs, which nobody ever did. I mean, even if they weren't going to show up, they'd call you a week before and say... I mean, I don't know if they got a better job offer, but there's not enough skilled people, and too many job openings, and I think the seller's market is taxing on business owners, and they're not used to that. I mean, it happens. I hate to say this, but a lot of them are like, "What we need now is a good recession to sort of tighten up the job market, so I can find some better people."

Pat Burke:

I don't think that's necessarily the answer. That is what's going to happen, but right now... And the other thing I would say is maybe a little bit banks are sort of pulling in their horns to access to capital. It is not what it was pre-COVID. I think, even though a lot of businesses got a lot of money handed to them through the PPP program and the ERC, so their balance sheets are strong, they don't necessarily need a lot of borrowing, and I don't know. Now that there's a potential recession and inflation, I think banks... They haven't lent money in a long time, because people haven't needed it. Now I think they're assessing the risk, frankly, a little bit too tightly. I just had a conversation yesterday with a consultant that I'm working with who is trying to find some financing for an acquisition, and some of the numbers he's being quoted are really... The bank's appetite... It's a big bank... Is very low, which is surprising.

Matthew Kelly:

I went for a haircut yesterday, as you can see.

Pat Burke:

Yeah, it looks very nice.

Matthew Kelly:

It didn't exactly go as I'd intended. I got more than I wanted to pay for.

Pat Burke:

Well, I think you got your money's worth.

Matthew Kelly:

No, I definitely got something, but I was talking to the barber, a young guy, probably late 20s, from Minnesota, graphic designer, come from a really impressive role with a corporation, and told me, "I didn't want to work that hard. I didn't. I was working 40 hours and then there were nights when I would have to come home and work on projects and so I quit." And he said, "I do this part-time and I work at a beer distributorship part-time," and I'm seeing a lot of that. I'm hearing a lot of that, but I'm wondering, "Where does that go?" Maybe at 28, that works. Maybe at 28 and single, that works. What does that look like at 38? What does that look like at 48? What does that look like with a family, and will these people be forced back into more traditional work roles, and will they bring a resentment with them that is difficult to lead and manage?

Pat Burke:

Great question. I mean, I've sort of been through this a couple of different times, with having been an employer for almost 40 years. It's like, "Well you have to treat Jen..." Fill in the blank... "This way," or what I've found over time is once people sort of move on with their life and find a partner and have children, everybody kind of responds pretty much the same. However, I think the whole COVID and the work from home, and I also think that there's the basic affluence of people growing up with not that many... They don't really have that many wants, and parents have made it a little bit easier for them. I don't want to say the safety net has become a hammock, but I think, in certain instances, that it has, and I mean, I know I didn't have anything when I started to work, and I [inaudible 00:24:44] used car and a few dollars.

Pat Burke:

And so I really was motivated by trying to have some creature comforts. I think that the base level of comfort is, for most 28 year olds, unless they grew up impoverished is just probably pretty high. They've got a car. They probably have an apartment, and the car is either paid for, or maybe parents helped them with that. Maybe they helped them with their apartment. So, I think the gravy train will run out, or else it'll just wake up one day and say, "Hey, I'm not really a contributing member of society like I wanted to, and I think I'd like a lifestyle a little more secure." I hope that happens, because it's certainly... I mean, you would think, of all the professions in the world, the people that would least likely just sort of move that way would be CPAs, but even in that milieu, it's hard to find people who, "Gee, can I really work? Can I work from home and come in two days?" And it's like, "That's not how we operate here," so it's difficult. It's very difficult.

Matthew Kelly:

Another thing that sort of ties into that is I'm seeing parents buy things for their children, gift things to their adult children that honestly never would've happened when I was growing up, and even 20 years ago, I don't think we would've seen on the same scale. If a client comes to you and says, "Pat, I have these three adult children. My wife and I have more than we need. We are thinking of giving money to our children, or buying this for our children," how would you advise them? How would you advise a client in that scenario?

Pat Burke:

Well, it's an extremely common question, and I'd say most clients, particularly if, as they do, the estate planning and gift planning is they're extremely careful with the kids until they're maybe 35. And then it's, if they've got a trust, then at that point... But even at that point, it's like they... I don't think I have any clients that have given their... Maybe at 35, they've got unfettered access to it, but by that time, I think the dye has been cast. You can kind of tell what kind of person they are, and if there's a problem before then, they can change the terms of the trust.

Pat Burke:

So, I think it's highly dependent upon... If it happens before then, it's dependent upon how they view the child and whether this will... "Is it a reward for meritorious conduct," or is it, "Are you trying to sort of artificially boost their lifestyle and maybe demotivate them?" So, it's a tough call. I think that particularly a lot of people in our generation grew up with not much, and it's hard to see your kids struggle. I certainly have seen instances where it's gotten out of hand. Particularly probably much more so with what I would call "dynastic wealth" into the third and fourth generation, it can get pretty sloppy. I don't have any of those clients personally, but I work with people who work with those kinds of families. It can get pretty out of hand, pretty fast.

Matthew Kelly:

What about a client that comes to you and says, "Hey, I've got four kids. I feel comfortable gifting to three of them. I'm concerned about gifting to the other," for whatever reasons. Maybe they have an addiction. Maybe they're not personally responsible. How do you advise them to navigate that...

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Matthew Kelly:

How do you advise them to navigate that situation? Or how do you see them navigating that situation well or poorly?

Pat Burke:

I'm thinking of a situation where the guy handled it poorly. And it was over a lifestyle choice that one of the kids made. And that person was a fine person. He just didn't agree with the lifestyle. And he completely disinherited her. I mean, I thought that was harsh because she was, otherwise, a productive member of society. I think most people in that situation are, I mean, not only is the parent acutely aware, the child's acutely aware that they've made some mistakes. But I do think it's something that's not, you don't cast it in stone. I mean, actually, the man is now deceased. But when he was doing his estate planning, he was very wealthy, completely disinherited his daughter.

Pat Burke:

And I thought you can't stop them from that. It wasn't fair. I mean, probably a more common issue is, my daughter's going to get my business. It's worth X, and I have two other children, what am I going to do with them? And how am I going to treat them fairly? And that happens all the time. And it becomes difficult if the business is super valuable and outside assets aren't. There's a lot of Solomonesque advising that has to go on in that situation. It's not always received super well. And they're going to do what they want in the end, but you can tell them what you think what makes sense.

Matthew Kelly:

And in that scenario, what does make sense?

Pat Burke:

Well, a lot of times it's like, hey, if the business owns a real estate, then the other kids get the real estate. And if you've got a 401(k) plan that's worth X, then the other one gets the 401(k) plan. And if it's still a big disparity, I mean, I hate to do this, but maybe the children that aren't involved have an interest in the business that's non-moting, but they get some foot of distribution from the business, because you got to be fair about it. And I think everybody wants to be fair, but you got to be... A lot of times they just... Probably the biggest mistake is, hey, I got four kids. Each child will get 25% of this business, and only one of them works in it. Yeah, you might as well just throw a stick of dynamite into it, because that's just going to blow up within five years.

Matthew Kelly:

So when you started your first business, you're young, you're married, you have one child, you think about... What was that like? What was your work ethic? And when you compare that to, maybe the conversation we've just been done having about, the drive and work ethic of some people in society today. What sort of mental state does that create in you?

Pat Burke:

It's interesting. I think as an employee, I was probably okay. As a business owner, I was on fire. I mean, when I got the first check that had my name on it, it was like, "Okay. Now I'm motivated." So every extra hour meant some incremental... I mean, once you're past breakeven, which took a while. But the idea that there was no sort of buffer between effort and result is exactly what I needed. And I worked seven days a week for, I don't know how many years. But it didn't seem like work to me because I wasn't in there all day. And I just stayed ahead of everything. And my office was five minutes from my house. And I could sneak over there and spend a few hours.

Pat Burke:

And that seemed like the most natural thing in the world. And I was very motivated to do that. So I don't know if that... But I grew up with it. My dad was a lawyer and a judge, so he worked like that. And my brother was a partner in a law firm, so he worked like that. So I was just used to, if you want to get ahead, you have hard work and being personally responsible was how you did it. You didn't wait for somebody else to hopefully shower you with something that may or may not be appropriate. I think one of the things that I'll never forget as long as I live is, we had a billable hour goal at the firm I worked for.

Pat Burke:

And everybody watched it pretty scrupulously. And it was a high number, so you could barely reach it. And I think it was 1900 hours. And so, I went into my review. And the partner said, "Well, you didn't make your chargeability goal." And he went on to the next thing. And I said, "Time out." I mean, "How many hours did I have?" He said, "Well, you had 1899.5." I mean, I know you talk about quitting and staying. At the moment, I knew I was leaving. I thought, "That's crazy." So yeah, I wasn't going to be... That was an artificial standard, clearly.

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah. Your son works in the CPA business with you now. And what is it like working with your son?

Pat Burke:

It's extremely rewarding, but can be extremely challenging. I think we've reached a detente here. It was a little harder. He's been working... What did we decide today? I think eight years since he graduated from law school. So full-time for eight years. I think the critical thing is hold them to the highest possible standard, but not an impossible standard. And I think, originally, I was holding him to an impossible standard. And another thing that I think is critical is that, understand that the relationship I have with him is viewed throughout the firm as, that's the standard for the firm. So if we treat each other with respect and hold each other to a high standard, that's how the firm will respond. And I also, I think, as I've told him a number of times, "For you to be not viewed as the boss' son, you have to be the hardest working person here. And you'll get no respect."

Pat Burke:

And he is, by far, the hardest working person. So he's met that standard. It's funny. My older brother who was a super good student, he was editor of the Law Review. And he worked for my dad who had a small law practice in Newport, Kentucky. And the summer between his second and third year, Mike worked there for him. And at the end of the summer, Mike was going back to school. And my dad said, "Would you like to work here?" And Mike said, "Well, dad, everything I wrote all summer, every letter, every memo," he said, "You carved it up. It was like it wasn't any good." He goes, "Well, it wasn't any good, but I see that there's some potential there." So here's my brother who's getting offers from Wall Street firms, my dad only saw potential, not greatness. So I think he was just trying to... But that's what you do. I think you hold your own to the highest standards. As I said, maybe too high.

Matthew Kelly:

If a friend came to you, and said, "Hey, I'm trying to make a decision about inviting a child into a family business or not." What counsel would you give that person?

Pat Burke:

I mean, just the other day somebody said, "I look at you and Jake, and I think, that's the American Dream." And I thought, well, that's kind of what it looks like from the outside, but sometimes it's the American nightmare, so don't kid yourself. So I think people have to understand that. Whatever your disagreements are or your different perspectives about things are, they're going to be amplified tremendously in a business environment. So you're not going to cure anybody by bringing them into your business. It's going to heighten any of the differences in your personality. Having said that, I mean, one of the things that I tell people about bringing somebody into the business is, sometimes they've heard so much about the business around the dinner table, and other discussions, and they've just sort of got a feel for it.

Pat Burke:

So it'd be a shame to let them go someplace else and take all that talent somewhere else. And I'm going through this with many of my clients. And I think they've been very thoughtful about it, about the responsibility they give them, and where they want them to take the company. And staying involved, I would say, mostly like a board member. The old story, nose in, but fingers out. The Ni-fo rule. So I think that's kind of where it needs to go to eventually. And I do think that, particularly, like in my business, having Jake there. I mean, he's so far ahead of where I was at his age, because I've involved him in things, A, the practice has become far more complex. And he's been doing this for so long that he's... I'd love to have had him work someplace else for five years, but he'd be behind five years then. But those first five were probably the most challenging. So we both would never came to blows, but we had a couple days where we didn't talk to each other. That's okay.

Matthew Kelly:

When clients bring children into a family business, and it doesn't work. Why does it usually not work?

Pat Burke:

So there's a saying in family businesses, they call it PIE, P-I-E. The first generation is passionate. The second generation is interested. And the third generation is entitled. And I think it's that the difference between, particularly, if a child falls into the entitled bracket, and the parents still in the passionate bracket, then it's the ability to see eye to eye, it'll just never happen. I'm trying to think of an instance where... I mean, I've seen it, but it usually corrects itself by the child not wanting to live up to the standard and just deciding to leave the business. So I've never had a situation where a parent had to fire a child. I'm sure I'll see it sometime before my career's over though. Lots of separations.

Matthew Kelly:

So we're going to talk a bit about your books, but sort of as a bridge to that. And one thing I've not seen in the books, and it may be in the books, and I may have forgotten or missed it. But you've had incredibly successful career, started a number of businesses, consulted to hundreds of businesses, sat on a number of boards. I, of course, am aware of your situation at home and the support you have from your spouse. And how important is that? And how often does that get overlooked?

Pat Burke:

Well, it's extremely important. And it's interesting how certain... Let me put it this way. If a person's starting a business, you have to have a hundred percent support from whosever left at home, whether it's the other spouse or it's some group of people that are helping out, the nannies or whatever, because business is consumptive. And it's very hard to serve. Hey, I'm going to do this. And I'm going to spend this much time. You can't really necessarily write it in on your calendar, because some days are 12 hours, some days maybe you can sneak at it then. I would say that with Mary Jo, she was always very, very supportive. Both of us worked for the first five years of our marriage.

Pat Burke:

And after Jake was born, I was doing a little better. And the daycare just became too difficult. And so, she just stayed at home. She kept her hand in doing little jobs here and there. She never resented the fact that she... She wanted to be a full-time mom at that point. She has gone back to work a couple different times, but it made it very easy. It was never like, "You better be home by fill-in-the-blank. Or do you really have to work this Saturday?" It was never said. Not one time. So very, very lucky to have that kind of support. And it probably should have been in every book. If she sees this, she'll be asking you why it took you to make this comment. But yeah, I mean, that was a given. And it's critically important, because it's so hard to do, to be worried about that while you're trying to start and run a business.

Matthew Kelly:

So you had extraordinary support there. I have extraordinary support with Maggie. But I have more and more friends, and more and more employees in my various businesses who don't have that. How do you see that impacting people? How do you see it impacting careers? If you could talk to that couple as a couple.

Pat Burke:

Yeah.

Matthew Kelly:

What would you say to them?

Pat Burke:

That's a great question, because it certainly comes up more and more. Everybody's got to be fulfilled. And if both spouses need to work to fulfill them, that's great. Then, I think, you got to find a happy medium there. And I think that a little bit of what I find is, with younger couples, I think, it's like they're playing a game of twister. They're making it very hard on themselves because of all the schedules. Old school, but it's like, let's talk about who's going to be the primary breadwinner for this family, for our long lives together. And of course, more and more that's... And a lot of the women that work for me, they are the primary breadwinners in their family.

Pat Burke:

And they've worked it out with their husbands or significant others that this is going to be my schedule during tax season. And I'm going to be working every Saturday. And you got to take the kids to the basketball game. And that's how it's going to be. And so, I think you got to get all those issues on the table. And I think that a lot of times, people are afraid to have the confrontation because it's like, "Well, maybe I'll offend them if I say that your career is probably only going to be five more years and mine's going to be 30." So you kind of got to get past that, I think.

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah. Let's talk about your books. 10 years ago, you wrote your first book. Since then, you've written four more. What was it that inspired you to become an author, or to want to become an author, to sit down and put pen to paper?

Pat Burke:

I'd say two things. I was a columnist on a radio show. And it was a call-in show. Every two weeks, I had to have a new topic. So it might have been, care and feeding of your banker. Or what does a bespoke balance sheet look like? Or whatever it was. And I would spend some time thinking about that, so I'd have several pages of notes. And it was a call-in show. And so, if somebody called in while I was talking, even if the topic was, it was five light years from my topic, we would answer the question. So if I'm talking about, care and feeding of your banker. And a guy would call in, and say, "Hey, I'm going to buy my brother-in-law's bar in Milford." Then, we'd have a 10-minute conversation with the guy that wanted to buy a bar in Milford, which is fine. According to the host, that was great radio, but-

Matthew Kelly:

And this is live radio?

Pat Burke:

This is live radio. So there was no, that was that. So I had 40 of these outlines. And probably in terms of broadcast minutes, maybe there was 40 minutes of it that actually hit the air. It's like, "Well, I don't want to waste all this." And I had a conversation with an author who happened to be Matthew Kelly, who said, "I showed you those topics." Well, you probably remember this. But you said, "So you want to write a book." And then, you kind of shook your head. And then, you said, "There's only three reasons to write a book. And that's to be rich, and to be famous, or to be known as an authority on something. And the first two aren't going to happen." So I went into it eyes-

Matthew Kelly:

Did I say that?

Pat Burke:

You did say that. I can tell you exactly where we were sitting. So I thought, okay. You said, "Let me think about it." And you came back, and you said, "Hey, can you divide this into a sort of a pre-opening early stage, mid-stage, late stage business issues?" And then I said, "Yeah, sure." And you said, "You need to write a story." So that's what. It's funny. I thought of the story right away. And so, it wasn't hard to do that for me, that was maybe just sort of the Irish storyteller in me. But it kind of all came to me at once, and I knew how I'd fit them in, so that part wasn't too difficult.

Matthew Kelly:

And if someone came to you today who had never written a book, and said, "Pat, I see you've written a bunch of books here. I'm thinking of writing a book." What advice would you have for them?

Pat Burke:

Well, have something to say and have a position on what you're going to write that has to be from a vantage point that you know a lot about and other people will find interesting. It was like, in my last book, I had a reviewer said it, "It was like sitting next to Pat at a bar stool. And he was telling me what not to do in business." And I thought, I don't think it necessarily needed to be a bar stool, but I mean, that was my view of that book. Hey, here's the things you shouldn't do if you really want to be successful.

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah.

Pat Burke:

I wouldn't have thought of it that way. But I think about talking to the person directly, not to a vast audience. I wish it was more vast. But you're talking to a person who's either in a business, or thinking about a business, or has already made a couple of these mistakes, and doesn't want to make anymore, can't afford to.

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah. Do you have a favorite of your own books?

Pat Burke:

Geez. I don't know. Actually, I think the one that, There Is No Us In Business. Talking about just the idea that not everybody is going to be a good partner. You may not be a good partner yourself. And the idea that you don't necessarily run out and find someone to go into business with just because you got an idea and just because you happen to need money. So I think it's one of the biggest and most common mistakes is partnering up. As I say, it's not like tennis or a golf game where you need somebody else to play. You can do it by yourself.

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah.

Pat Burke:

And most of them don't work.

Matthew Kelly:

Most partnerships?

Pat Burke:

Yep. And they're expensive to get out of.

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah. Why don't business partnerships work?

Pat Burke:

I think there's, what I'd say, a disconnect between the two levels of passion. Somebody is super passionate about the idea and got it started. And they're not only passionate about it today, they're passionate about staying on top of it and reading. And how do we push this thing forward? And the other person can't match that. They're never going to be at that level. And as I tell people who are planning on going to business together, I said, "Take a personality test." Let's see if you're compatible. Trade personal balance sheets. If there's going to be a capital call, can you make it? And if somebody has absolutely nothing to lose, then they have nothing to lose. And you do, then there's going to be a different level of fear.

Pat Burke:

And fear is a great motivator, maybe the best. Right? And so, I tell people, "Look, if you're planning on just having an okay business, then partnerships are fine." But nobody goes into a business idea, we're just going to do okay. At least one of the two sees it as a launching pad for something great. And I say, most businesses, the partners get along fine if it's just going fine. If it goes poorly, and it's heading down the drain, then there's usually finger pointing. And it's usually one person is not pulling their weight or whatever. The other time, just as commonly I would say. If it's doing really, really well, and there's probably one of the partners who's really stood out. And that partner looks at the other partner, and says, "I know we thought this was going to be good at 50/50, but I don't see it at 50/50 anymore because you fill-in-the-blank. I'm rowing way faster than you."

Pat Burke:

This just isn't going to work. And what I tell people is, if you're going to start a business, unless there's a need that the business has that is absolutely critical. And you can't find somebody to do that job unless you offer them a piece of the business, then pay them cash. Do whatever you can do. But don't bring them in as a partner. If later on they earn that right, that's fine. What I see with a lot of things, it's more common that the highest, if you think about whose engine revs the highest. If the partnership stays together, the person whose engine revs the highest will end up just sort of slowing down, because it's like, there's really no reason for me to rev at 10,000 RPMs when everybody else is at seven, because my motor can't push this any faster, so I'm just going to sort of lay back. Or else, they'll leave, and start another business. This time by themselves. And that happens all the time.

Matthew Kelly:

So what makes a great partner?

Pat Burke:

I think somebody who has complementary skills. They don't have to be every bit as talented as the other person. I just think they need to be driven. And they have to understand, know their limitations. Well, you need to know yours. And I think if, hey, this person's way better at sales, I'm way better at production, and that's what we're going to do. It's fine. And I understand that sales might be paid more than production, then I'm okay with that. You just have to understand what your roles are. And make sure that people are compensated at the appropriate level for the roles they're playing.

Pat Burke:

I mean, you don't see, let's say, a third down running back in the NFL who's really good at catching the pass over the middle when it's third and eight, but that's what he does. And the quarterback's in for every play. So that third down back doesn't say, "Well, gee. I'm really good as a third down back, I need to make as much money as the quarterback." It's like, no, you don't. I mean, that is a specific role. That's what you do. You're great at it. But here's the pay band for that, and this is what you make. So those are tough calls to make and conversations to have with a partner. But if you're going to remain partners, you have to be able to have those, right?

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah, no question. What about then, sort of, as an introspective exercise for someone who is already a partner in a business? How do we be better partners to our partners?

Pat Burke:

Well, I think it goes back to difficult conversations. If you feel like what's set up is not working, then you have to be willing to sit down, and say, "Hey, I know we thought that this is what was going to happen, but here's what really happened. I'm not satisfied with how this is happening." It's interesting when this happens, because I've had this conversation with dozens of people.

Pat Burke:

And most of the time, when the partner sort of, screws up enough nerve to have the conversation, the other partner says, "I was wondering when you were going to come in and ask me this." If you chose a good partner, they understand where they've excelled and where they haven't, I think. And so you're not going to be knocking them over with a blinding revelation of the non obvious. It was probably pretty obvious, right?

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah. So I know you're a lover of music. And one of the things that has always fascinated me is how bands stay together, but mostly fall apart.

Pat Burke:

Right.

Matthew Kelly:

And sometimes come back together. In our own time, U2 is one of the most successful bands over the past 30 years, and has remained together for that entire period of time. Do you have a theory about why bands fall apart? Or a theory about what has helped U2 to stay together?

Pat Burke:

Oh, I was just listening to them on the way out here. Actually, Bono was on the U2 station, and he was writing a fan letter to Kendrick Lamar, and he was reading it aloud. I don't know. I think, obviously, he's a bigger than life person and interested in all sorts of things. And I think it seems like the other members of the band are particularly not interested in that. So they're not competing for the limelight. They're interested, I think, Ed is way more interested in sort of sounds. I think they'd prefer to have him out front. And they'll do the things they do. And it's like, "Okay, time for you to sing a song." That would be my guess. I mean, they don't seem to be ego driven guys at all. I don't know them, but I've seen enough documentaries that sort of seems to be the-

PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:58:04]

Pat Burke:

... seems to be the dynamic there. What do you think?

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah, I think it plays into what you were saying earlier. I think they have the awareness of your gifts and awareness of your role. I think some people are really good at being a number two and they would be really bad as a number one. And unfortunately, I've seen things in business where you've got two partners. One is really good at being a number one. The other is really good at being a number two, but someone gets in the year of the number two and tells them, "You should be a number one," and they break up a really successful partnership. And the person who actually either their personality, their gifts, their skills are more suited to being a number two because someone gets in their ear, they go off and try to become a number one and it fails. And I see that over, and over, and over again. I think the, with the U2 thing, I think they have astounding awareness of their own gifts. And I think they have really clearly defined boundaries from the start going way, way back.

Pat Burke:

Really. That's why it's work, right?

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah. And I think they have each other's backs.

Pat Burke:

I had a conversation with my brother way, way, way back when I was first... when I'm talking about bringing on my first partner and one of the things he said that it, A, be careful when you're bringing in a partner because you really don't know what you have yet. So it's hard and how you're going to value that, what percentage. And so be hyper careful about it. And because I know I wrote in one of my books, "If you don't think your business is going to be the most valuable asset that you ever have, then don't start it." So when my dad was talking about somebody who was cheap, he would say he threw nickels around sewer lids. And I think people should throw equity in their business around sewer lids. This is a heavy thing. You really got to be very careful about it. So I think people just sometimes don't think of it that way so that they get... This is going to be, "I don't really need to do this to keep the person," and I think it's a huge mistake, that I'm for sure.

Matthew Kelly:

Mm-hmm. Your latest book, 10 Biggest Mistakes or 10 Biggest Business Mistakes: And How to Avoid Them. The first mistake is buy or start the wrong business. Tell us about that.

Pat Burke:

Well, I've done it a couple times, so I know of what I speak here. I've learned some of valuable lessons, expensive lessons. Most people who've never owned a business or started a business are much more aware of the trappings of the success of the business than they are the inner workings. And they meet somebody at a party and hey, he's talking about his business. And then they find out that it's for sale and, "Hey, my son might and I might want to be involved in that." And it's sort of the old story about the duck. It looks very serene on top, but you can't see how fast that the feeder paddling. And just because somebody else was successful with a business doesn't necessarily mean that you will be. And I think most small businesses, which are the ones that transact mostly between people, most businesses are run in the image and likeness of the owner.

Pat Burke:

And he's got or she's got a certain set of skills. And that business has morphed around those skills in such a way that when you pull that person out of it and put somebody else in the thing just doesn't work. That puzzle piece doesn't fit in right. And there's things you can do to make that business transferable. But most business owners don't think of it that way. And frankly, most business owners don't think they're selling somebody something that's not a valuable asset. They believe it's valuable, but they really haven't done the things they needed to do to set that up for the next person to be as successful as they are. And so you've got a business that's uniquely suited to the person who's selling it and not necessarily or definitely not necessarily uniquely suited to the person who's buying it. If the person goes in and then they I guess to compound that it might be a business where they don't have any natural inclination.

Pat Burke:

I always say you should be the best person at the key position or maybe the second best person at two or three key positions to make the business successful. And if you look it up, and they talk about business being a three-legged stool, right? So there's administration, there's production, and there's sales. And if you're really a good administrative person, I'm a great accountant, so I'm going to go buy this, pick the business. It's like, "Well, the guy you're buying it from is the consummate salesman." And he's leaving and he really didn't develop a sales structure. Even if it had 10 years of uninterrupted profits, you're not going to be successful with that. So you bought the wrong business. And so that's, "Hey, I'm a smart guy or I'm a smart girl and I can run that business as well as, because I'm every bit as good as that person." And you might be, but you don't have the same, that person may have 30 years doing that and it's so uniquely suited to them that you'll never make it work right.

Matthew Kelly:

And when this happens, do you see people, do businesses fail? Do they buy the business not realize that and a business fails? Or do they buy the business and it ends up just sort of struggling for a long time? Or do they end up selling it? What does that look like?

Pat Burke:

Well, all the above, I think that most often that they sort of they have an epiphany and they go, "Hey, there's something I'm missing something here." And if they're talking to me beforehand, it's like, "Let's talk about what it is you're actually buying. And does the business have enough processes and metrics around it that it can be run by anybody?" And I always tell clients if you can go on a three-month holiday and someplace that has no internet connection, no phone connection, and your business can run perfectly, it's ready to sell. If it won't, it's not.

Pat Burke:

And if you're quizzing a seller and you ask him that question and you go, "Well, I've never been away from my business for more than a week and a half at a time." And you know right away, a bell should go off that this thing is not idiot proof. Not that it needs to be idiot proof, but it needs to be it. I talk about it a lot and I talk to clients about it a lot and there's value to you, and then there's true durable value that's transferable, whether it's to a family member or to somebody you sell it to, and that's all around creating processes about how you do everything.

Pat Burke:

And if you are a really great accountant and you want to own this business, it's sales-oriented, then you better have a great salesperson in there or a great sales process. Otherwise, it's not going to work. And most of the time, people sort of come to the realization, although many times, I mean, this isn't all that common, but I have seen this happen a couple different times where the buyer just couldn't, just didn't get it, understood the industry, but didn't understand the special skill that the person had. And I'm thinking back to a client of mine who had a metal plating business and the guy that bought it called up and said, "I'm giving it back to you. I can't run it. I can't pay the note. And I thought I knew all about this because I sold chemicals to you. I don't know anything about it." And he took it back and built it back up and sold it and bought another one and built that back up and sold it. So he just knew how to do it.

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah.

Pat Burke:

And he was sort of, I guess, not an educated guy, but a brilliant guy that just understood the manufacturing process and margins just intuitively. And I don't think he even knew that he had that skill, but I saw him, look, you look at a part and he'd go, "Oh, four cents." And he's like, "What do you mean four cents?" That's what it would cost to chrome plate that, and they want X number of those. And that would be the extent of his costing and he'd be right 99% of the time.

Matthew Kelly:

Wow.

Pat Burke:

So the next guy didn't have that then, that wasn't part of his skillset. So-

Matthew Kelly:

And probably couldn't if he did it for 20 years? So he-

Pat Burke:

No, no, just that the... And I think too often people sort of equate the fact that this person isn't highly educated, with this person isn't highly intelligent. And that's a huge mistake.

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah. You talk about people coming to you or asking you a question or they are in a predicament and they want your advice and help to get out of that predicament. I find that staggering number of people seek professional help at the wrong time, in a transaction or in a situation, they buy a business, they don't seek professional help before they buy it. They seek it when they have a problem. How prevalent is this? And what do you put it down to?

Pat Burke:

Well, particularly if somebody's coming into the business, buying a business, coming from having worked for someone else, their whole life. So they, particularly, if they worked for a big company where, I mean, if you needed advice, you picked up the phone and called production or you called legal. And then, so now it's because you've had that experience, the idea of paying for that by the hour or whatever, pardon me, they don't want to do that. It's like, "No, I think I understand that, because I've worked for this multinational for this number of years.

Pat Burke:

So I know how to do all that." And they don't. The professional who's been through that 100 times or 200 times has seen 200 times more than you have. So they're going to have ideas about that you would never think of in a million years. So I think part of it is sort of a hubris and then part of it's just cheap. Oh, I don't I can get by without that. And I'd say anybody that's been through owning a business, buying a business, selling a business that did that on the cheap the first time will never do it again.

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah. Why do people start businesses that are just not a good fit for them?

Pat Burke:

Just the lure of easy money, I think. Like I said, they see the neighbor and he's like, "Well, Ed's just like me." And he's got this successful distributorship of these switches and I get it and I can something like that. And the value added distributorship, that's sort of the Holy Grail. Everybody wants one of those, right?

Matthew Kelly:

Mm-hmm.

Pat Burke:

And that'll be easy to run. You don't really have to add anything to it. You just have a nice client-base and you buy for X and you sell for two X. And I think it just looks easier on the outside. And it isn't easy. There's a million different things that they haven't thought of. And if you've been in a very narrow lane inside the company you worked for, and all you did was, "Hey, I marketed this product in North America," and you know a whole lot about that, but you don't know anything about cable or switches or whatever you're going to sell, even though it's a distributorship and it's not a manufacturing process, there's a million things to know. And I'd say one of the most common things that people mess up all the time in that is they just they'll buy a ton of inventory. "Oh, gosh. I got 20% off this. So I bought two years' worth." And so a common saying in business is, "It costs you prime plus 20% to hold inventory."

Pat Burke:

So it costs you 2% every month let's say to hold inventory. So if you got a 4% price break and you held up more than two months, now you're losing money on it. So you just one of those lessons that... And I had a client that was in business forever that just didn't understand that. And we walked in the first day and he was a clothing importer. And I looked around this warehouse and I thought, "Oh, my goodness. You're expecting a big year?" And he said, "No, a lot of this stuff's 10, 15 years old." And it's like he thought the worst possible thing was to run out of that year's colored sweater in a mid-season. And it's the stockout isn't the worst possible thing. The worst possible thing is buying that last five container loads that you can't sell, because next year nobody wants teal, right?

Matthew Kelly:

Right.

Pat Burke:

So-

Matthew Kelly:

Staying with the same book, The 10 Biggest Business Mistakes, number five, the fifth mistake is the wrong team. What do you mean? And how does it manifest?

Pat Burke:

Well, it's anybody who's in any human resource-type work. And it's the old story, A players hire A players, and B players hire C players. And I think as people grow their business and they have a very specific sort of person in mind and as they get bigger and they get less involved in the hiring process, suddenly they don't have A players around anymore and they're surrounded by C players. And you think, "How did this happen?" But it naturally happens. And so you got to be very vigilant about it. And these days back to your opening comment about people, there's so few people, and I tell clients now, "You should just continuously recruit, just continuously recruit." And even if we do it, maybe if I don't need somebody, Dan who does the recruiting, "Hey, I've got somebody for you to talk to. And it's like I know you don't need that person today, but would you meet with them?"

Pat Burke:

And at the end of the meeting, I might say, "Hey, we don't have a need for you right now, but who's to say? So if you don't mind, if it'd be okay with you, can we stay in touch?" And they say, "Yeah, of course." So I think that's just part of the dynamic that people, it's going to get harder and hard to do that. And the other thing that I believe is I call it the Pete Rose Syndrome. And Pete was a great baseball player and probably did more with less talent than anybody in history. And he would say that in his book, he said that, and I think he, in his heart of hearts believed he could turn every player into Pete Rose.

Pat Burke:

And I think a lot of highly driven entrepreneurs think, "Well, I'm nothing special. So I can turn anybody into me with just a few short lessons." And so I had a client that had been an HR person at a bank. And actually he was sort of develop the whole idea, peak time, staffing for banks and sold that all over the country. And we were just talking about it, got people, and he said, "If a person's personality is true north," he said, "Maybe you can get northeast or northwest, but you're never going to get east, west and you absolutely will never get south." So if that's about the band you can change is right in there. And if what you want him to do is outside that band, it's never going to happen and it takes entrepreneurs a long time to think that the sheer force of their will won't change people, but it's not going to.

Matthew Kelly:

Mm-hmm. What advice would you have for someone who needs to hire someone who is more talented than themselves?

Pat Burke:

Great. You should. And I think it's hard for people, particularly, entrepreneurs. I think, I believed when I was first in business that I had to be careful about over-training somebody, because I'd be training my next competitor, but after three or four years, I thought, "Well, if these people wanted to be on their own, they'd already be on their own." So don't be afraid to hire really smart people and overtrain them because, I mean, in fact it has never happened. So, I mean, I pride myself in hiring people that are smarter than me. It's pretty low bar anyway. So-

Matthew Kelly:

Are entrepreneurs born or can that gift or ability be developed in a person?

Pat Burke:

I think most of the time, I would say, they're sort of born with that competitive drive. I would say that there's people who don't know that they're entrepreneurs, because they've sort of... You see it in families, there'd be the dad I'd worked for a multinational, and so the son worked for a multinational, and the daughter works, and they don't, they've never really given that a shot because that's the family businesses. We work for big companies. So now, one of those person, one of them lose their job and they say, "Hey, I'm now on the market to buy a business," it's a pretty common situation.

Pat Burke:

They really have to do a lot of self-analysis to see if they really can. I had two individuals that fit that criteria. And they looked all over for a business and the client of mine was selling his business and they got down to a week before the closing and they came to see me and it's like, "We'd really need him to guarantee the first year's sales." And I said, "Well, that's not how this works." I said he said, "He's worked with you for six months to a year. So he'll teach you the ropes, but he's not going to guarantee anything." That risk shifts that closing. It goes, "That's why he's getting out." The risk is now yours, not his, that if he has that risk, you just keep the business.

Pat Burke:

And you say that we can't do it. And I don't know why they hadn't had that revelation before, but they just didn't happen until, I mean, literally, the week before closing, I mean, everything was set up and it was... But back to your original question, the person whose business that was who obviously didn't sell that, he was what I call an accidental entrepreneur. The owner of the business came to him one day and said, "Hey, we're getting rid of the business. We're getting out of this part of the business. We're not going to do this anymore. If you want to stay in it, you can buy it or we'll sell it to somebody else." And he called me actually, he was friends with me and my brother and he called us both. And he goes, "I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to buy this. I don't know if this price is fair. Can you walk me through it?"

Pat Burke:

And he was scared to death. He's probably 50. But he took to it. He was a good advice taker and they gave him a good deal and he ran it very well, made a lot of money, and made a lot of money when he finally sold it. So would he ever have started that business on his own? No. There are no way, but I think at 50 he thought, "Hey, I'm never going to know as much about any other industry as I know about this. So I really need to make this, give this a shot." And it worked.

Matthew Kelly:

What about all these colleges now, universities have these entrepreneurial schools. If it can't be taught, and I believe there's a part of it that can't be taught, I think it's sort of in someone's DNA or isn't.

Pat Burke:

Yeah.

Matthew Kelly:

If it can't be taught, what are we doing with entrepreneurial schools?

Pat Burke:

It's funny, I never really thought about that. I guess, well, at least with entrepreneurship programs, I mean, it's in the business school, so you're picking up a smattering of disciplines, hopefully, more of the hard disciplines than the soft ones. By that, I mean more finance and accounting than perhaps marketing and management. But I don't necessarily think if you wanted to be an advisor, that's probably a good place to start. If you wanted to be a financial analyst, I think there'd be a good place to start. I mean, you certainly, and this is overstating, but, I mean, you can't go to school out of nowhere and say, "I'm going to be a professional tennis player."

Matthew Kelly:

Right.

Pat Burke:

You're just either you have something or you don't, right? And I think there's a little bit of that aspect to it because you can't teach somebody to be a good assessor of risk or of their own ability to tolerate risk. And that's a hallmark of an entrepreneur. But them should say, "Okay. If you really want to go to an entrepreneur program," now ought to be some sort of a one of those test, I don't know what it would be, one of those things where you trade this for that. And at the end of it, look you're not a risk-taker. So you might be an advisor to an entrepreneur. You may work for an entrepreneur, but you probably aren't going to be the person who starts or buys something and takes it off into the sunset.

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah. And your book Accelerate subtitle is 20 high-performance questions to supercharge your business. Each of the questions has three possible answers. And then at the back of the book there's this score sheet. Talk to us a little bit about what's your thoughts were there with the 20 questions, with the score sheet, who should read that book and what do you hope they would get out of it?

Pat Burke:

Well, I was doing consulting with business owners about all those topics, but I hadn't snapped the chalk line around it. What is it that I was really trying to get to with them? And so I challenged myself to sort of distill that into 20 areas. And so I just, in the book, I write down. So for example is you're an accountant, is he a historian or is he a Carnac the amazing prognosticator? Does he help operate your business and see a bit of the future? And I'd say the A answer was where most of the clients are. No, my CPA is a historian. And the B answer to that, he helps out a little bit now and then has at the budget.

Pat Burke:

And then C answer is, he's my trusted business advisor. And he fills into gaps where I need him filled. He's been right most of the time, he's assessed risk, he's helped me grow the business to places where I never thought it would be. And as I went through and thought about the A answer or the top answer was what were most businesses are? And so the idea is at the end. I think that the top answer, the A answer was or the C answer was the 20-pointer, the B was a 10-pointer. And if you answered the A, answer that you got zero for that. So at the end, if you didn't score at least 150, you needed help.

Pat Burke:

And every client that took it was they weren't even close to 150. And so it naturally that's helped me, I use that as a basis when I coach CEOs and CFOs, and just sort of, I start with those 20 questions, which leads to dozens and dozens more, but almost the idea of having sort of a very stripped way of looking at their business, that's not the entrepreneurial mindset that they're much more freewheeling. And I think this isn't an original thing, I don't even know where I read it, but they were saying entrepreneurs only have two lenses. There's a wide-angle of lens to look for opportunities and threats, and there's a microscopic lens to concentrate on that, then it goes back out to the wide-angle and the middle ground, the middle management ground, where all the processes and metrics are, that's not their thing. And of course, the business is about that the book is about creating processes and how one it turns a profitable business into a valuable business, which isn't one does not necessarily equal the other, right?

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah. So when you consult with the business and you walk through the 20 questions with them and they get their score and obviously some things stick out as problems and/or opportunities. How do you decide which one they should start working on?

Pat Burke:

Well, being a financial guy, we start with that because I know most about that, right? And usually that leads to various other things. And the relationship with their bank, is your bank facility adequate? It often leads, believe it or not, into the sales, because it's like, "Well, your margins are below industry averages. Your growth is below industry averages. What's going on here? Are your sales guys giving things away? Are you used to be involved in that? Are you still involved in that?" So you find, looking at the numbers and the budget leads you into different areas where you think they may be a little bit behind the curve and might be innovation. When's the last time that you added a new product? And one of the reasons that your margins are shrinking is everything you got on your sales floor now as a me-too product, when's your next new one come now? That's where you made the real money. So, "Oh, well, I hadn't thought about that." So most of it's when you start talking about it becomes pretty obvious to the business owner, but it's not obvious in advance.

Matthew Kelly:

Question four of the 20 questions. The last time you had a dispute with an employee, did you end up with a black eye? Talk to us about that?

Pat Burke:

I think the world's gotten way better at this because the whole human resource function is looked upon now as a professional, that's a profession, handling people it used to be this is what we do and you're going to like it, right? But you can't do that anymore. But I think particularly business entrepreneurs tend to be way too flexible with that. And person A is super valuable. Person B may not be. This person, you don't adhere to all the rules with them. And it becomes a jump ball. And usually, you lose on that. And as litigious as everybody is these days, you don't want to be in a situation where it looks like you've been not even handed in how you've treated people or how you decided to let someone go. So having a good employee manual, having a good employment contract, making sure everybody understands if you've got a non-compete covenant, making sure everybody understands what your benefits are and what they aren't and what-

PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:27:04]

Pat Burke:

... make sure everybody understands what your benefits are and what they aren't, and what those benefits cost the company that they're providing to you. What your 401(k) plan looks like and whether that's competitive. It's funny. For whatever, I think I've got a lot of clients who are extremely generous with their employees. I'm blessed to have a lot of clients that do really well, and they're not afraid to share it.

Pat Burke:

But I had a conversation with one of the CFOs the other day, and he's like, "Ah. We don't worry about what we call the hidden paycheck at the end of the year. Here's the FICA we paid for you, here's what we paid for your health insurance. While your W-2 said you made $82,500, it actually cost us $110,000 for you to work here. Either they already know that I don't understand it." I said, "I disagree with that."

Pat Burke:

Particularly they were losing people for 50 cents or $1 an hour when I knew their 401(k) plan was particularly generous, and so was their health insurance, so this is worth having this conversation. The people that work for you are smart. They may not be college educated, but they're technicians and they're smart, they get it. But if you don't tell them that, they might think, "Well, it's just $1 an hour. It's 40 bucks, I'm gone."

Matthew Kelly:

Question number seven deals with compensation. What advice do you give clients around compensating their employees?

Pat Burke:

We've had a lot of interesting conversations as part of my CEO coaching, and I think that one of the things people miss about compensation programs in general is you need to have a pay band that you're, hey, I'm going to be somebody that pays in this band, so we're going to be in the top 20%. Then have the service band that you're expecting them to produce to be congruent with what you pay them, and then have what you charge your customer congruent with both of those.

Pat Burke:

So I coach some CFOs and one of the problems with this, it's a service business, and the CFO has told me a number of times, they advertise themselves as we are top flight service providers in a certain industry. He said, "But we pay low to middle and we charge kind of middle of the road." So, you need congruence. I mean, if you're going to be a top flight and charge top flight rates, then you have to pay top flight rates to the people, and that's how that works.

Pat Burke:

The old, if you pay peanuts, you're going to get monkeys. But a lot of people think that you don't need a philosophy about it, but you do. It's okay if you're going to be middle the road. Hey, we're going to be the middle of the road and we're going to pay in the middle of the road, and that's what's that's going to be and we're going to charge that way. Fine. You're probably selling on price, and I don't agree with that as a long-term business model, but if that's what you're doing, then okay, then make sure that that's what you do across the board.

Matthew Kelly:

When you're hiring people, whether it's for your CPA firm or your other businesses, what are the most important qualities you look for?

Pat Burke:

Well, I think that I mentioned this in the book. I think people are very enamored of resume skills, and that's great. Sometimes you have a extremely technical area you have to hire for, and that's that, and then you kind of have to deal with the personality that comes with that. We just had to hire somebody in that area, but we actually found somebody with a great personality that's also very technical. But overall, all things being equal, it's like, hey, find somebody that's going to be a cultural fit.

Pat Burke:

I think that one of the things that our recruiter does is, I feel like ... well, I know what he does. He pre-closes them on the culture before I even talk to them. So it's like, here's what we're about, here's what it's like working here. It's high output, but it's also everybody's very fair, everybody respects each other. At the highest possible level, it's just not a place where disputes happen. If that appeals to ... but everybody's engine does run at 9,000. So if that's not you, then don't come here. If that is you, then we can move on to the next rung in the ladder. So, I feel like that part is kind of already covered for me.

Pat Burke:

I'm not a good interviewer, because I'm trying to make them feel comfortable. At the end of the interview, I probably know a lot about them personally and I know if they're an introvert or an extrovert, but I don't burrow into their skills. So I have now gotten myself where I have 10 questions that I do ask, and I do get the answers to those and we compare those, but I'm a salesperson. Yeah, I'm the introverted salesperson who's always closing, so I'm closing them even if they're not the right person. So I'm not good at that, somebody else needs to do it. I don't know if that's a good answer or not.

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah. What about as we look to the future, what do you think the biggest challenges facing business owners over the next 20 years are likely to be?

Pat Burke:

Well, in our own business, in accounting I think it's going to be offshoring. I mean, there's lots of smart people around the world. If your job and the work you're doing isn't tailored to the client exactly, it's kind of like doctors' transcriptions. They're transcribing after they leave, the time with the patient, almost all that transcribing, if it's being done by a human being is being done offshore, because you can't add any value to it. So if what you're doing is a service and you're not adding some peculiar value to it that's unique to you, you got to be careful, because it's going to be done someplace else.

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah.

Pat Burke:

Or by a machine.

Matthew Kelly:

The economy has most likely entered into a recession, you've seen many of them. What advice would you have for your clients and their businesses, but also for your employees and just individuals?

Pat Burke:

Keep your powder dry. I mean, I think it's this too shall pass, right? It might be an opportunity. I think that it's interesting, in that I've got a client that has a number of quick serve food restaurants, and anybody that bought those sort of pre-COVID or during COVID and over-leveraged that, and now that there's a recession, I mean, quick serve tends to be affected less by recessions than fast casual dining. But everybody's affected, so there might be opportunities now to pick up some stores at a fire sale price, because people weren't smart about what they paid for it, and they paid too high a multiple at the wrong time.

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah.

Pat Burke:

Back to an earlier point, banks are worried and inflation's high, so access to money is difficult, so I think it might be a good time to be looking for any business. If somebody's motivated to sell now, it might be you've got a truly motivated seller in a marketplace, it's not frothy so you're probably potentially getting a good deal.

Pat Burke:

As far as the employees, probably the thing I see most of is there's not as much interesting work right now, because there's not as many things going on. People aren't opening new branches, they're not acquiring another division, so everybody's sort of pulling their horns in. My advice would be don't worry about that. I mean, we'll stick to our knitting and it'll all bounce back, it always does.

Pat Burke:

This is a weird recession, if we are in one, and there's a lot of jobs out there, and people are looking and people are looking for people. So I don't think we're going to have stagflation, I think the fact that the money that was injected into the economy through COVID is going to work its way through. That $4 trillion that's sitting on the sidelines is going to be deployed and things will be back to normal, but it's probably going to take halfway through next year before we see that, right?

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah. So much of life and so much of business is making decisions. How do you make your decisions? Do you have a decision-making process or how do you work through that?

Pat Burke:

So, I made a decision recently or my partner and I did to acquire another CPA from a small town nearby. I guess I look at a situation like that, we were the only buyer, and had that business been 50 miles closer, there would have been 100 buyers. It's like, are you going to be intimidated by driving an hour and 15 minutes to help manage a business that's otherwise a great business?

Pat Burke:

In this instance, it's an accounting firm that has 1,000 clients and they offer very limited services, mostly tax. So, I knew we offered other services and I thought, "Well, we can afford to pay top dollar for this, because I think we can offer more services and have a higher yield from that client base than they do."

Pat Burke:

As a result, I gave the seller just about everything they wanted. I want them motivated, because they're going to stay on and help us work through it. So, just calculated risk. It's not biggest transaction of their life, so I think they're going to want to make it work. It's one that my partner and I could afford to take the risk, so we did.

Matthew Kelly:

What about as you look back on your life, do you have regrets?

Pat Burke:

Maybe I'm not introspective enough, but I really don't have many regrets. There's a couple things I did that I wish I'd had done earlier. We got into the money management business 12 years ago, we probably should have done that 20 years ago. My partner was in favor of doing that, but I just didn't see the connection as strongly as I see it now. I think it's becoming stronger and stronger as our clients sell their businesses.

Pat Burke:

Now they go from business clients to money management clients, so they already trust us, so it's not been a hard transition at all. So, I mean, probably I think we would've been ready for that before 10 years ago, but I didn't come to the realization. I'm not going to beat myself up over it. Maybe a little.

Matthew Kelly:

A little? What do you love about being married?

Pat Burke:

Greatest thing in the world. It's the ultimate support. My wife, Mary Jo, is just the super kind person who's been indulgent in whatever I wanted to do, has supported me 100%. Has put herself second in a million different situations, and does it for a lot of people, frankly. She just is very natural at being a person for others. I probably have used that privilege a little bit back in the beginning, I think I'm trying to make up for it now.

Pat Burke:

It's great having your best friend that you hang out with every night. So we've been empty nesters now for seven or eight years, five years I guess, and we never run of things to talk about or do, so I guess that's a good sign. Some people do at that point, right? It's like, "Wait a minute. Who are you?" But we haven't had that syndrome just yet.

Matthew Kelly:

What about parenting, what do you love about being a parent?

Pat Burke:

Well, it's why we're here, right? I mean, I think you're supposed to create great people that replace you and push the human race forward in some fashion. I lost my dad young, but he was a extremely honest forthright person. In addition to being a judge and a lawyer, he was on an anti-crime ... I mean, he was just one of those guys that always did the right thing. That was, as my mother used to say, if you wouldn't be proud to see it on page one of The Inquirer, don't do it. So, I remembered that quite a bit.

Pat Burke:

Then another thing that my dad said is, "You'll never be sorry you did the right thing, but you'll always be sorry you did the wrong thing eventually." So those kinds of pieces of wisdom I hope I pass those along, I think I have. I have three great children who are raising great families. So I think it's an ongoing job, but it's the most rewarding thing in the world by far. Although maybe being a grandparent, because certainly if that's one, that's 1A, so I'd say that's ...

Matthew Kelly:

What about personal finances, what advice would you have for people around their personal finances?

Pat Burke:

Just live within your means and save, but then there's a caveat. Because I'm one of the older business guys in a big family of lots of nieces and nephews, and one of the things that if they come to me for career advice, I say, "Look, don't worry so much about money during your 20s and maybe early 30s. Try to find the correct vertical for your skillset, and the money will come. Don't be profligate, but don't worry about accumulating money when you're not making very much, worry about accumulating skills, and I think it'll kind of take care of itself."

Pat Burke:

Cincinnati's not a flashy town, I don't think people tend to get overextended. There's no push for that, so I don't think most people here do that. I mean, people make bad decisions every day, and there's certainly the ability to lease $100,000 car for X dollars per month. There's way too many of those on the road for sure. But live within your means, absolutely save as much money in your 401(k) plan as you can. It's a very powerful thing. Having your employer match your contribution and then having it grow tax free, it's the most powerful thing in the world. So, a lot of people give that short [inaudible 01:44:01] and that should be your first place to save, right?

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah.

Pat Burke:

That has to be beat into people's heads occasionally. Apart from that, be a lifetime learner and constantly refine your skills and you'll be remunerated properly for it.

Matthew Kelly:

If you could host a dinner party for anyone, you can invite anyone from history, who would you invite to your dinner party?

Pat Burke:

How many can I have?

Matthew Kelly:

As many as you wish.

Pat Burke:

Oh. Well, that I'd love to have John Kennedy, just because I think that he was a different kind of president. I mean, he had a lot of very conservative ideas fiscally that sort of have been abandoned by the democratic party. He went through some unbelievable crises and came out of it, did the right thing.

Pat Burke:

Thomas Jefferson, I think, would be. Mary Jo and I went to see Monticello, I mean, the things he was interested in way back then, and his ability to sort of get the most out of what he had. I don't know if you know this, but in his dining room, he had two like a dumbwaiter on either side of his fireplace. On one side, if he rang that bell, he won a bottle of red wine from his cellar, and on the other side, it was a bottle of white. So the guy down there, the steward, would send it up in a little shoot. So I thought, talk about being ahead of your time. I don't think anybody even has that now.

Pat Burke:

Pope John Paul, I think, would be an interesting person. He certainly had an unbelievable effect on not only the church, but Eastern Europe. The last person might surprise you. I think I would invite John Lennon.

Matthew Kelly:

John Lennon?

Pat Burke:

I wrote an article recently that towards the end of his life he was sort of heading towards being a Christian. After all his imagine there's no heaven and all that stuff, I thought it's funny that he wasn't. I don't know how old he was when he was assassinated, I think in his 40s, so I wonder where he'd be today and how he would look at things today. That'd be a pretty interesting group, I think.

Matthew Kelly:

Would be a good group. It's fascinating, John Lennon developed stage fright-

Pat Burke:

I didn't know that.

Matthew Kelly:

And would not perform toward the end of his life, because he was literally scared to death of going on stage. Elton John asked him to play on a song ... no, John Lennon asked Elton to play on a song, in the studio recording of a song, and Elton said, "This is going to be a number one hit." John Lennon said, "No. Yeah, I mean, it's not even be released as a single." Elton said, "I will bet you this will be a number one hit, and if it's a number one hit, you have to come on stage with me and perform it." That was the last time John Lennon ever performed.

Pat Burke:

Oh, really?

Matthew Kelly:

It was at Madison Square Garden with Elton John.

Pat Burke:

Do you know what the song was?

Matthew Kelly:

I think it was Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds, or something like that.

Pat Burke:

Okay. Oh, really?

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah. So-

Pat Burke:

Isn't that something after all-

Matthew Kelly:

It's amazing that someone like that would develop something like that.

Pat Burke:

Never heard that story.

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah. You've been on a board here at Dynamic Catholic for several years, I know you're involved in other Catholic ministries. Why is supporting Catholic ministry important to you?

Pat Burke:

Well, as I said, I'm a cradle Catholic and it was always a extremely important part of our family life. I mean, my parents were extremely devout, and if you ever spoke negatively of someone, she would just stop, "You can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." She absolutely adhered to that. As I said, my dad was the most honest person of all time.

Pat Burke:

One time as a kid, we'd gone on some vacation to a national park, and I took an astray from a Holiday Inn. He saw that in my room. "Where did you get that?" I said, "Well, from that Holiday Inn in Lexington." Had Lexington not been an hour away, he would've put me in the car and ... I mean, he was like, "I'm extremely disappointed in you. I can't believe you did that." It's like, "Dad, it's an ashtray." "Yeah, but it's not yours." So it was like, got it. So as a 12-year-old, I think it was like, okay, and I thought that's all part of the Catholic upbringing.

Pat Burke:

I think as I know you state often, it feeds more, educates more and heals more people every day than any other organization on the planet. That's not by accident, right? There's a lot of great people that think of others before themselves, and that's why it is what it is. I think Catholic education is critical, which is why I'm involved with the Catholic Inner-City Schools' educational program. We educate 2,500 grade school children every year.

Pat Burke:

Not many people in town really know about it, but if you saw the statistics of how many of them go on to Catholic high schools and how many of them go on to college as compared to the public school system, it's 4X, and it's, once again, no accident, right?

Matthew Kelly:

Right.

Pat Burke:

I'm also involved with my high school, Newport Central Catholic. We're doing a major campaign now and they asked me to Chair it, and I think I must have left the room during that vote or whatever. But no, in all seriousness, I know I can do that. I mean, that school is a critical element for the diocese in Covington, and if it went away, there'd be probably 10 parishes that wouldn't have a high school to send their kids to. I just don't think that's right, so I feel strongly about that.

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah. If you could be present for one moment in Jesus' life, which moment would you choose?

Pat Burke:

I think I would like to have seen his time in the temple when he lost his parents, just to see what he was saying, how he was saying it and how he differentiated himself at such a young age, but without revealing himself.

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah.

Pat Burke:

I think that would've been very interesting.

Matthew Kelly:

That's a great one. What about when you have difficult times, when you get discouraged, how do you get through that?

Pat Burke:

Everything's temporary. Is try to put it, I think the hardest thing to do as you get older is putting things into perspective. You've seen so many things go south. Whether it's somebody else's health or somebody else's business, and you had to say, okay, just because something happened to somebody else, doesn't mean it's going to happen to you.

Pat Burke:

I think you can look at having witnessed a lot as either being, hey, most people go through it, or you can say, "Wow, a lot of bad things happen to good people." So, I think you'd have to concentrate more on most people get through it and most of the things you worry about never happen.

Matthew Kelly:

Right.

Pat Burke:

So, that's a critical sort of revelation to come to in your life.

Matthew Kelly:

Last two questions, one very worldly, one very otherworldly.

Pat Burke:

Okay.

Matthew Kelly:

We're living in material world. What is your favorite possession, that thing that just brings you great joy?

Pat Burke:

It would have to be my drum kit. It's a really good one, way better than I am as a drummer. I found a guy, who he bought this drum kit and took one lesson. He had played in high school or something and decided he wasn't going to do it, and he sold it to me for a song. It's a DW, it's really good. It's fun. I mean, I find music, unlike golf, every time you play, you get a little bit better and you learn a little bit more and you can apply a little bit more. I continue to take lessons and it's rewarding.

Pat Burke:

It's something that actually the young man who's my teacher was saying they've mapped in your brain what you have to do as a drummer and how many different synapses you got to connect to be moving four limbs four different ways, and it's really good for you in a neurological way. Which that doesn't account for how many drummers like Keith Moon were sort of halfwits, or ended up that way. So, that's fun. That's fun for me, it's a good outlet.

Matthew Kelly:

Otherworldly question. When you think about end of life, the next life, the afterlife, heaven, reflect on those things, what do you think about?

Pat Burke:

Well, reconnecting with my parents and my brother, and some uncles I was particularly close to. As you get older, you think about that more, you're not going to be here forever. As my brother used to say, "The cemetery is filled with essential people. They were essential for a while." One of the things that I hope is true is that you can continue to help people there, and I think you can.

Pat Burke:

I think that's why to the extent that I am good at what I'm doing, I really enjoy helping people. If you read my books, it's really about trying to help people make good decisions about their business. I feel like that's one part of your life, that while it's not foolproof, it's so controllable. If you can control that, then the other things in your life should probably fall in place.

Matthew Kelly:

Yeah.

Pat Burke:

I mean, with the exception of your health, right? That you can only do so much about. Worry free, I think that would be nice. Rest, I guess. Although, I think I've gotten a little better at that.

Matthew Kelly:

Excellent. Pat, thank you so much. Great to be with you.

Pat Burke:

Thank you, Matthew. I enjoyed it.

Matthew Kelly:

Excellent.

Watch the full interview!